striking back
i'm back from my weeklong internet hiatus, and before describing the details of hamstring rehabilitiation and other boring offseason activities (see previous posts regarding mixed, beach and injuries) i figured i would post something relevant to the open game.
remember a while ago when the pups started quite a stir with this post? it seemed like everyone was outraged that defenders might play their hardest, and not concede even the smallest advantage to their opponent. as a defender (even made their top 7) i appreciate this sentiment, although maybe parts of their post were over the line.
on to my point, have any throwers tried fighting back? i think intentional fouls on the mark, where the marker is making no attempt to stop the flight of the disc, but only the movement of the thrower, constitute cheating. it's been rare, but there have been a few times when playing, both in tournaments and in scrimmages, where i have had the disc and felt like the marker was intentionally hacking me. maybe a few of those i haven't made a big deal of. but maybe the best way to end it was by firing back. something along the lines of "if you do that again, i'm going to throw a backhand across your forehead", can really send home the message that enough is enough. one time i even tried it, but went for the ribs instead of the face after the marker in a zone, who was behind me, grabbed the disc on my wind-up on a backhand, so i traveled to throw a backhand into his side. while i came up with this method independently, i have heard stories of jim "daddy" doing this in 1996 nationals to saucy jack.
this whole thing reminds me of a quote i heard from my buddy garthe, "an armed society is a polite society".
remember a while ago when the pups started quite a stir with this post? it seemed like everyone was outraged that defenders might play their hardest, and not concede even the smallest advantage to their opponent. as a defender (even made their top 7) i appreciate this sentiment, although maybe parts of their post were over the line.
on to my point, have any throwers tried fighting back? i think intentional fouls on the mark, where the marker is making no attempt to stop the flight of the disc, but only the movement of the thrower, constitute cheating. it's been rare, but there have been a few times when playing, both in tournaments and in scrimmages, where i have had the disc and felt like the marker was intentionally hacking me. maybe a few of those i haven't made a big deal of. but maybe the best way to end it was by firing back. something along the lines of "if you do that again, i'm going to throw a backhand across your forehead", can really send home the message that enough is enough. one time i even tried it, but went for the ribs instead of the face after the marker in a zone, who was behind me, grabbed the disc on my wind-up on a backhand, so i traveled to throw a backhand into his side. while i came up with this method independently, i have heard stories of jim "daddy" doing this in 1996 nationals to saucy jack.
this whole thing reminds me of a quote i heard from my buddy garthe, "an armed society is a polite society".
posted by greg at
12:22 PM
10 Comments:
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
By
Anonymous, at 12/08/2005 1:31 PM
although maybe parts of their post were over the line.
I believe the correct possessive adjective to use here is "J-Co's"....or just "his"...
But even J-Co admits in one of his own comments to the post that he purposefully exaggerated a bit there to create a stir. Personally, I think if offensive players began to strike back, the game would get uglier in general/cause more cheating on the D's part...
By
Seigs, at 12/08/2005 3:34 PM
well, the rules/observers used to provide the thrower the opportunity to take a free throw. something i used to do all the time (cuz you're/we're all a bunch of f-ing hacks).
couple fun stories:
'01 nationals... our boy dewey, known to do his fair share of strrrretching the rules, was hacking the shit out of me throughout the finals. i had 2-3 fouls over turned by the observer where i took my free throw (yes, on 3 of those 15 turns I was fouled). later the observer said they were letting all that type of marking go unpunished and the free throws weren't going to fly. [jeez, would have been nice to know that... before the game. of course they've sinced talked at length during pre-tournament captains meetings about what is and isn't a foul on the mark... what will and will not be allowed... as well as how the rules in various other situations are going to be interpretted. but the free throw as we knew it is basically gone.]
'01 nationals pool play... after several hard fouls [downfield and on the mark] by a guy that was getting tooled left and right, at stalling two I clenched the disc and faked a hard backhand [essentially a backhanded punch] into the markers gut/chest sending him back several feet bending over. "whoops" i said, "sorry, no contest". yes, nothing new.. doubt even Jim Daddy evented that.
'04 nationals... jit is playing D on me while I'm behind the disc. getting a little to agressive for my tastes as i tried to simply cut away from him. The thrower turned to me, as I made a cut which Jit tried to deny, I grabbed Jit and tackled him to the ground and called a foul him. He smiled, no contest. He kept playing agressive, but stopped playing cheap.
greg referenced the pups post, which I only just read for the first time. didn't seem to out of line, i'm not sure who they are, but they seem like your run in the mill 2nd tier players who use whatever means necessary to be able to compete at a higher level. these players are all over. and i'm not suprised they are the future of DoG, as we have all noticed the dip in play over the past several years. but when you talk about the best defenders in the game, they don't play like that.
from the comments, i think uproar was from the acknowledgement of making fantom travel and foul calls to gain and advantage, on top of the agressive approach that was boarderline concious cheating. so you may want to qualify which sentiment you appreiciate, because I don't think anybody was outraged that defenders play their hardest. ;)
when it comes down to how to deal with overly agressive defenders who you beleive are cheating, i think countering their out of control play with like physicality is always a good/fun solution, whether its a cheap kick, punch, tackle or whatever (assuming mentally you are prepared for such an altercation). but for the most part this type of retaliation is rarily needed, because the worst offenders of this type of play usually aren't that good to begin with, so more often than not its to your advantage, as they get themselves off balance, etc. the other ones are usually just playing good hard D.
By
Idris, at 12/08/2005 4:06 PM
jim daddy evented? no, invented.
By
Idris, at 12/08/2005 4:08 PM
seigs, unfortunately i view all the pups simply as "they", as are most all of the guys on DoG who joined after 2002 when our respective teams stopped playing each other in meaningful games (i.e. semi's or finals of nationals or worlds). as jim commented to me at santa cruz this year "you're the only one left to hate" referring to the turnover on the condors. so you are guilty by association. i'm sure corey will write something here that will make me guilty by association. anyway, i think you're right, that if the o starts taking cheap shots, it'll get out of line real quick, and escalate into a physical confrontation; that's why i advise using the technique only when even the marker knows he's over the line. usually just threatening it will keep people honest (like the one time when i told a black tide teammate i was going to wrap his forehead around my forearm, and he stood there with a crazed look in his eye and said, "i hope you do, i dare you"...well, i didn't, but his mark got a lot cleaner after that).
idris, i think as you pointed out, a little fightback may let the defense know you're not going to take it, and sort of clean things up a bit. us defenders will walk all over you if you let us...even maybe take some joy in it. there are ways to let people know that it's getting out of hand. of course, the type of foul that would instigate a backhand to the body will probably be more obvious and damaging than a little bumping away from the disc. but i guess we all have our limits.
as for where i think the limit is, any action which is made to intentionally create a foul is over the line in my book. actions which are intended to challenge for a spot on the field, or stop a throw to the closed side, are legit. i would never encourage intentional fouls, but hard plays on the disc that result in a foul is just an unfortunate product of hard plays.
By
greg, at 12/08/2005 4:44 PM
I like, Greg, how you forgot about us spanking DoG in the '03 quarters. I mean, you said "Semis or finals," but I bet some of those guys probably thought it was a meaningful game. We were clearly already looking to the semis against JAM.
By
Corey, at 12/08/2005 5:05 PM
Oh yeah, well we felt the same way in the 2002 quarters when we stopped your streak (if you can call a measly two a "streak").
Great entry, lots of fun to read.
By
parinella, at 12/08/2005 6:18 PM
First of all, Idris I can't believe you would bring up the finals of '01, but maybe your therapist told you it was good to talk about such things at this point. If it were me, I would bury that experience and deny it happened. Secondly, I had the pleasure to play with Jim Daddy for many years and Dewey too and think of them both as hard nosed, blue collar players. I wouldn't call either of them cheaters or dirty players.
By
Brent23, at 12/08/2005 10:43 PM
"Cheater" = a certain type of player on another team.
"Hard nosed" = that same player on my team.
Any counterexamples? Anyone want to come out and call a teammate (past or present) a cheater? (One of my teammates called himself a cheater, so that doesn't count.)
By
parinella, at 12/09/2005 10:25 AM
i think cheater is a pretty laoded term to use in frisbee circles, but i like our attempt to de-mystify it. there is cheating by fouling (which is what i think jim is referring to) and there is cheating through calls.
as far as cheating with calls goes, the only time i think it's cheating is if the person really doesn't believe in their own call. i don't think that someone who makes the wrong call is a cheater, so long as they really believe they have it right. in that case, they are just mistaken. even making a lot of calls doesn't make someone a cheater, as long as they believe that every call they make is legitimate.
i need to be careful, i'm wasting all my good post ideas on comments.
anyway, to answer your question, it has been a very rare instance where i have seen a teammate cheat (i can think of only one in particular). it was done while i had authority it was immediately addressed and dealt with.
By
greg, at 12/09/2005 3:13 PM
Post a Comment
<< Home